I don’t have the numbers in front of me but I do know two statistics:

-Those who enter religious marriages are FAR more likely to remain married.
-Those who enter religious marriages are more likely to share their last name.

Based on that I’m willing to propose that the statistics for marriage success are higher for those who share their last name, but I admittedly don’t have a specific study to reference.

You’re right that a marriage is not about names. Then how could it POSSIBLY be that it would make even the slightest difference?

Wht? Because symbolism matters more than most are willing to suggest. While you’re willing to dismiss in your comment the very real reality that symbolism matters, I’m not willing to that. I think it is a dangerous trend in our society that we’re dismissing the value of the symbolic in all but the most superficial ways.

The reality is that symbolic acts better than just about anything besides specific meaningful acts, reflect what the person stands for. And that’s why being willing to make the symbolic sacrifice of changing one’s name is important.

What I’d really like to see is a study showing the correlation between those couples who share the same last name and those who don’t with divorce rates. Because isn’t that what both sides of the political aisle really care about? Creating strong, healthy, nuclear families that love and support each other and their children?

The engagement ring take is an interesting one. I had a friend of a friend who seemed like a very reasonable lady until she told her boyfriend that he couldn’t propose until he could afford a certain rock.

The root of the matter is that it’s human nature to be in favor of the conventions that favor us and against those that don’t. So just as it’s natural for guys to complain about their lot in life and disgard women’s complaints, it’s natural for women to do the same. It takes a great deal of discipline and integrity not to fall into this trap and we all inevitably fail.

What worries me is that society has reached a place where so many of us are willing to voice those complaints without reservation. It’s a sign that we as a society have lost any sense of sacrifice or “taking one for the team”. My fear is that this will create an increasingly hostile society where everyone is more concerned with their own interests, irrelevant of whether it is fair, and no concern for the society as a whole.

I’m a moderate liberal who disagrees with a lot of your politics (though our Catholicism binds us, yours true and strong, mine dusty and faltering), but I support you in this one. If I was to the point where I considered marrying the woman I was dating, if she was unwilling to take my name, then I would allow it with the compromise that I then wouldn’t get her an engagement ring. After all, isn’t that an archaic sign of possession? Certainly an enlightened woman with a professional career who is too good for my name is also too good to be objectified by wearing my ring. You’d be amazed how many women will talk about independence and all that comes with it, but will howl and scream if they don’t get the giant rock.

In other news, I was at the ill-fated USC game this weekend. We came back from 17 points down just to lose on two missed three pointers. Big dissappointment. That will be my last taste of Cal basketball this year. I’m all gung ho for Tennessee in August!

I didn’t ask you to evaluate whether it was “highly improbable” that you’d be put in a situation where you’d have to chose between a great guy who insisted on you taking his name and finding someone else. I asked you to put yourself in that situation and tell me what you’d do. So, what would you do?

Similarly, it doesn’t much matter what the reason is for not wearing the ring (as long as it not something like physical health). Just as the last name is symbolic, the ring is symbolic. But to passify you, here’s a more parallel ring explination: He doesn’t like the whole “you complete me” implication. He thinks he has his own identity and by wearing a ring he’d be giving up on his own identity. People would judge him not as his own man but as part of a couple.

So, what do you tell that bride who wants him to wear the ring?

Regarding your final paragraph, I’m glad your FINALLY willing to admit that in extreme situations you’d be willing to make extreme sacrifices for your marriage. Or said more broadly, you’d be willing to make sacrifices commenserate to the severity of the situation. Was that so hard?

Additionally, I agree that a bride not being willing to change her name does not explicitely mean that she won’t be willing to sacrifice later on. However, it’s definitely not a good sign. Because it is not a good sign, I think it is wise for the groom to press the issue. It’s a good way to test what kind of metal the relationship is made of. If the bride-to-be says “I’m out of here” then it’s good he found that out now. If the bride-to-be says “please don’t make me do this. I’m really stubborn and it would really hurt if you made me” then the groom-to-be needs to spend a great deal of time determining if this is just a quirk of his bride-to-be or indicative of future problems and whether to follow through on the issue. If the bride-to-be says “anything for you”, that’s a great sign.

(and just to be clear, I hold men to a similar standard of needing to say “anything for you”.)

Finally, I think this discussion has COMPLETELY validated the original comment on Brian’s blog that got me “into trouble”. You’ve admitted that you’re being obstinate. (and yes, you’re right, I have a strong obstinate streak as well.)

As for your questions about marrying the perfect name sans the name-change condition: it’s highly improbable. If he were truly the perfect man for me, he wouldn’t insist that I change something I feel so strongly about. Why do I feel so strongly about it? The same reasons I just gave- it’s part of my identity and I disagree with the notion that the woman must be the one to change her name. I would compromise with a hyphenated name or agree to go by my husband’s name informally, but never lose my name completely.

Your wedding question didn’t make much sense, quite honestly. Not wearing a wedding ring because you don’t like the way it looks is vastly different than changing your name because you’re refusing to sacrifice your identity. I would have to hear the guy’s reason for not wanting to wear it, and the reason would have to make more sense to me than not liking how it looked.

You will not convince me to change my name, just as I will not convince you why it is alright for me or any woman not to change it. I do acknowledge that there may someday be extreme situations that I must face and will deal with those when they come. But I do not see the name-change as one of those scenarios and I do not think failing to do so makes me any less able of compromise or sacrifice. So we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

I think what mislead you was that you were assuming I “knew” your answers to the various questions I was posing to you. I think you’re a person with a big heart and a lot of compassion and when it comes right down to it, you’ll make the sacrifices needed to have your marriage succeed. However, I’m trying to get you to admit that it’s what you’ll actually do. So far you’ve been obstinate.

Back to the debate.

Generally I’m the one making things overly black and white but in this case I think you’re creating an invisible line by differentiating between “make career sacrifices, but not willing to sacrifice my career”. At what point does a “career sacrifice” transition to “sacrificing my career”? I think if you asked 100 people that question you’d get 100 different answers. Some people would say that just being geographically locked to one location or having to keep a job that has financial stability is sacrificing their career (because they give up on advancement opportunities) while others would suggest that even though they haven’t worked in a decade that because some day they hope they may start working again that they haven’t yet sacrificed their career.

As such I’m willing to let that semantic issue slide. You’ve conceeded the main point: No, people shouldn’t dump their marriage just because they’re unhappy about the sacrifices they’ve had to make.

The only thing that continues to bother me about your perspective is an unrealistic expectation that a marriage will never end up in a situation that puts the couple in one of the extreme scenarios I keep proposing. By refusing to consider that scenario, you refuse to acknowlede the starkness in priorities that must be made if those situations were to arise. Yes, yes, they won’t occur in most marriages. But what I’m asking you to consider is what you would do IF a situation like that arose. So far you’ve been unwilling to consider it.

Or said another way, anyone who enters a marriage with a “I refuse to sacrifice X for the sake of our marriage” is tempting fate, even if X is fairly extreme. God has a remarkably wonderful way of forcing us to confront that which we’re obstinate to.

Bringing it full circle: Yeah, I’ll admit that giving up one’s maiden name can be difficult for some women. However, the way I see it, that is precisely why it is an important symbolic statement. Marriages will require difficult sacrifices and this is a good, yet simple, one to start with particularly if your future husband desires it.

I’ll finish by asking few questions:

Why are you so insistent about not changing your name? Are you really saying that a guy who in every other way is the right guy you’ll refuse to marry because he has this as a condition?

Finally, you never addressed my wedding ring scenario. What would you tell that bride? How is that scenario any different?

The answer to your question is no: I am completely willing to make career sacrifices, but not willing to sacrifice my career. This is a huge difference. Of course I understand that relationships require compromise and flexibility, but I will not give up my career or my last name, nor would I ask the same of my husband. Of course there will be times when my career and my marriage will come in conflict, but does that mean I have to flush my degree down the toilet? Probably not.

Feel free to rip my arguments to shreds, but please make sure you don’t mis-characterize my statements. (Speaking of which, expect a whole new post about the women’s movement to correct your mis-characterizations about that.)

On a more positive note, thanks for praying for my open-mindedness. I’ll admit that at times I can be close-minded.

I think where you and I diverge opinions is the necessity of the absoluteness of our priorities. You’re right that being devoted to one’s career and devoted to one’s family don’t necessarily need to be in conflict. At the same time, it is a realistic possibility that the two will come in conflict at some point in every marriage. I realize that I give extreme situations which are beyond what most marriages will be asked to survive. In contrast, you seem to be unwilling to address the possibility that your career and your marriage could ever be in direct conflict.

So while I say you must be WILLING to give up everything, you say it’s not NECESSARY. To some degree were arguing over terms, and that I’m willing to let slide. I think one can make our different perspectives in this regard compatible by saying “Most of what we must be willing to do in life will never be necessary”.

But even with that difference rectified, your perspective still strikes me as having some serious issues. See, you say you won’t marry someone who asks you to “be untrue to yourself”. But things change. Your husband and your circumstances WILL change. To quote you:

“I will not give up my biological family, my career or my last name. To do so would ultimately make me unhappy…”

So, yes or no, once you are married, would you file for divorce if you’re unhappy because of career sacrifices?

As far as the women’s movement being anti-children, marriage and men, nothing could be further from the truth. At the heart of feminism is the simply belief that men and women should be treated as equals in our society. And despite some radical ideas, this is what most feminists believe.

I’m deeply devoted to my career, just as I will be deeply devoted to my husband and my family. I don’t see the two as being mutally exclusive. I will not give up my biological family, my career or my last name. To do so would ultimately make me unhappy and I wouldn’t marry anyone who asked me to do that. If you think this makes me selfish- fine. I think to do otherwise would be untrue to myself, my beliefs and even my partner. I’m entirely capable of making compromises and sacrifices (the fact that you think otherwise shows how much you don’t know me). I don’t think it’s necessary to give up everything you are just because you get married.