Comments on: TGD – Frustrated by Chapter 2

By: Ken Crawford

Ken Crawford — Tue, 09 Nov 2010 20:52:02 +0000

Brian, I know very little of Hestia or most of Greek Mythology, so I’d have a hard time answering that question as it is asked, but let me try to address the larger question of what separates polytheism from Christianity.

In polytheism, each deity is independently minded. They can act independently and with different motives. There are stories of them joining together and stories of them fighting each other. They are independent of one another.

In Christianity there is only one God, so all the power of God is unified in nature. The fact that the Angels wield that power is entire at the discretion of God… it is not the Angels’ own power and they can not wield it without God’s agreement.

Similarly, the Trinity, although spoke of as three entities that can in some way be separated, their will can not be separated. They are of one will and one power. They are one. It is by definition impossible for them to be in conflict because they are one.

And to reiterate the point, Mary has ZERO power that your average human being doesn’t have. She can hear prayers as any human in heaven can and can pray herself. It is merely her closeness to Christ that makes it that so many wish her to pray for them.

By: Brian M

Brian M — Tue, 09 Nov 2010 19:19:45 +0000

Apologies Ken.
-Unless I’m mistaken, the divine powers of angels are documented in several cases throughout the Bible. In the old testament they wiped out entire armies, in the new they were mostly content to glow. As it’s commonly used, deity doesn’t necessarily mean ultimate power (or even significant power). In Greek Mythology, Hestia kept the fireplace on Olympus warm- not really that awesome. But people prayed to her and revered her nonetheless, just as Catholics do with Mary and the Saints. I guess my question then is, what is the difference between Hestia and Mary? How is one considered a deity, and the other isn’t (try to do this from an outsiders perspective, as if you were merely categorizing the two, then I think you’ll see Dawkin’s point).

By: Ken Crawford

Ken Crawford — Tue, 09 Nov 2010 18:04:24 +0000

Brian, the Catholic view is that all power comes from God. Mary has no special powers other than the power of prayer that every human has. The same is true of the Angels. So by the definition of deities you’ve provided, none of them are deities.

You’re welcome to comment further, however, one caution: there is no value in using the word indoctrinated, so please stop. It’s a statement presuming intent/understanding of others, a fools errand. While it has a more refined definition, in practice, it’s little more than a way to call people stupid.

Argue the particular points you want to make and how Catholics are incorrect, but stick to the points, not to attacking someone’s intellect, and I will do the same.

By: Brian M

Brian M — Tue, 09 Nov 2010 17:32:43 +0000

1. I think you missed the point here, obviously Catholics do not consider Mary, angels, or their many Saints to be actual deities- but to a religious outsider who is not indoctrinated, that is obviously what they are. Deities most commonly refer to supernatural beings with special powers- given this common understanding of the term, the father, son, holy spirit, Mary, hundreds of saints, thousands of angels, Satan and demons are all deities. So Catholicism is really a polytheistic religion, unless you redefine deity to whatever special definition Catholics use to sidestep this blunder (which is not a legitimate reply to the above criticism by the way, radically redefining terms to suit your argument is a logical fallacy).

About your other comments concerning the composition of this chapter, I must agree- he was ‘all over the place.’ One important thing to keep in mind is that he’s approaching this from the perspective of a scientist, and is therefore largely unconcerned with the intricacies of theology. He wants evidence, evidence, evidence- not linguistic or mental gymnastics. So from that perspective, the idea of trinity is so incomprehensible and unsupported as to warrant immediate dismissal.

By: Deacon Nathan Allen

Deacon Nathan Allen — Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:45:52 +0000

The ‘polytheism of Mary’ argument really is silly, isn’t it: it would be as if someone were to assert that Britain and the Commonwealth have many different sovereigns because there is a Queen of England, a Queen of Scotland, a Queen of Canada, a Queen of Australia, a Defender of the Faith, a Duke (not Duchess) of Normandy in the Channel Islands, a Lord (not Lady) of Mann on the Isle of Man, and so forth. But all refer to the same person, Queen Elizabeth II. In the same way, Our Lady of Walsingham, Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Fatima, and so forth are all the same person. It’s such an elementary mistake it becomes hard to take anything such a person writes thereafter seriously.